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What Americans Used To Know

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lewRockwell
Published : July 08th, 2013
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"During the weeks following the [1860] election, [Northern newspaper] editors of all parties assumed that secession as a constitutional right was not in question . . . . On the contrary, the southern claim to a right of peaceable withdrawal was countenanced out of reverence for the natural law principle of government by consent of the governed."

~ Howard Cecil Perkins, editor, Northern Editorials on Secession, p. 10

The first several generations of Americans understood that the Declaration of Independence was the ultimate states' rights document. The citizens of the states would delegate certain powers to a central government in their Constitution, and these powers (mostly for national defense and foreign policy purposes) would hopefully be exercised for the benefit of the citizens of the "free and independent" states, as they are called in the Declaration.

The understanding was that if American citizens were in fact to be the masters rather than the servants of government, they themselves would have to police the national government that was created by them for their mutual benefit. If the day ever came that the national government became the sole arbiter of the limits of its own powers, then Americans would live under a tyranny as bad or worse than the one the colonists fought a revolution against. As the above quotation denotes, the ultimate natural law principle behind this thinking was Jefferson's famous dictum in the Declaration of Independence that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and that whenever that consent is withdrawn the people of the free and independent states, as sovereigns, have a duty to abolish that government and replace it with a new one if they wish.

This was the fundamental understanding of the meaning of the Declaration of Independence - that it was a Declaration of Secession from the British empire - of the first several generations of Americans. As the 1, 107-page book, Northern Editorials on Secession shows, this view was held just as widely in the Northern states as in the Southern states in 1860-1861. Among the lone dissenters was Abe Lincoln, a corporate lawyer/lobbyist/politician with less than a year of formal education who probably never even read The Federalist Papers.

The following are some illustrations of how various Northern-state newspaper editors thought of the meaning of the Declaration of Independence in 1860-1861:

On November 21, 1860, he Cincinnati Daily Press wrote that:

We believe that the right of any member of this Confederacy [the United States] to dissolve its political relations with the others and assume an independent position is absolute - that, in other words, if South Carolina wants to go out of the Union, she has the right to do so, and no party or power may justly say her nay. This we suppose to be the doctrine of the Declaration of Independence when it affirms that governments are instituted for the protection of men in their lives, liberties, and the pursuit of happiness; and that 'whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government . . .'

On December 17, 1860 the New York Daily Tribune editorialized that "We have repeatedly asked those who dissent from our view of this matter [the legality of peaceful secession] to tell us frankly whether they do or do not assent to Mr. Jefferson's statement in the Declaration of Independence that governments 'derive their just powers from the consent of the governed . . . . We do heartily accept this doctrine, believing it intrinsically sound, beneficent, and one that , universally accepted, is calculated to prevent the shedding of seas of human blood." Furthermore, the Tribune wrote, "[I]f it justified the secession from the British Empire of Three Millions of colonists in 1776, we do not see it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861."

The Kenosha, Wisconsin Democrat editorialized on January 11, 1861, that "The founders of our government were constant secessionists. They not only claimed the right for themselves, but conceded it to others. They were not only secessionists in theory, but in practice.. The old confederation between the states [the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union] was especially declared perpetual by the instrument itself. Yet Jefferson, Madison, Monroe and the hosts of heroes and statesman of that day seceded from it." And, "The Constitution provides no means of coercing a state in the Union; nor any punishment for secession."

Again on February 23, 1861, the New York Daily Tribune reiterated its view that "We must not, in behalf of either of the Union of Freedom, trample down the great truth that 'governments derive their just power from the consent of the governed.'"

The Washington, D.C. States and Union newspaper editorialized on March 21, 1861, that "The people are the ruling judges, the States independent sovereigns. Where the people chose to change their political condition, as our own Declaration of Independence first promulgated, they have a right to do so. If the doctrine was good then, it is good now. Call that right by whatever name you please, secession or revolution, it makes no sort of difference."

This last sentence was a response to the Republican Party propaganda machine of the day that invented the theory that the Declaration allows for a "right of revolution" but not a right of "secession." The States and Union recognized immediately that this non-distinction was nothing more than a rhetorical flimflam designed to deceive the public about the meaning of their own Declaration of Independence. It is a piece of lying propaganda that is repeated to this day by apologists for the American welfare/warfare/police state, especially the Lincoln-worshipping neocons at National Review, the Claremont Institute, and other appendages of the Republican Party.

On the eve of the war the Providence, Rhode Island Evening Press warned that "the employment of [military] force" against citizens who no longer consented to being governed by Washington, D.C. , "can have no other result than to make the revolution itself complete and lasting, at the expense of thousands of lives, hundreds of millions of dollars, and amount of wretchedness fearful to contemplate, and the humiliation of the American name."

The Evening Press then reminded its readers that in the American Revolution the colonists rejected "the Divine right of Kings" to do whatever they wanted to their subjects. "Our forefathers disputed this dictum," they wrote, and "rose against it, fought against it, and by successful revolution accomplished their independence of it. In its place they substituted the doctrine that 'to secure human happiness, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . ."

On this Fourth of July most Americans will not be celebrating or commemorating these founding, natural law principles. To the extent that they are celebrating anything but a day off work to overeat and overdrink, they will be celebrating the imperial warfare/police state with hundreds of parades featuring marching soldiers in camouflage, flags galore, military vehicles, jet fighter fly-overs, "patriotic"/warmongering musical anthems, etc. The symbol of all of this is King Lincoln himself, who rejected every single principle of the Declaration of Independence. His successors have reinterpreted the document to "justify" endless military interventionism all over the globe in the name of "making all men everywhere equal." To the neocons, this means perpetual wars for "democracy." This of course has nothing whatsoever to do with the real meaning of the Declaration of Independence and is in fact the exact opposite. No people in any country that has been invaded and occupied by the U.S. military have ever consented to being governed as such by Washington, D.C. As such, they can all be thought of as Neo-Confederates.

Source : lewrockwell.com
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Thomas DiLorenzo is professor of economics at Loyola College, Maryland, and a senior fellow at the Ludwig von Mises Institute. He is the author or co-author of ten books, on subjects such as antitrust, group-interest politics, and interventionism generally
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Part 1

Hart.

Got home to find 4 pieces of junk email. They were all from 24h gold alerting me that a response had been made to one of my comments and not to my surprise, they all came from you. Well, 3 of them did and 1 was from Verboten. That is officially speaking. But I shall have more to say about that in a moment.

i considered whether or not to respond to your barrage of criticism, for dealing with what you have presented appeared rather pointless from my perspective. However, as you can see, i have decided to do so and will respond to them all in this one place. This forum has been chosen for 2 reasons. The first being that it was my response to Snafu on this page that set the comments flying back at me from Verboten and Schwerpunkt yesterday and from you today. None of you appreciated my having referred to the pair with the German names as lap dogs. They showed their disdain immediately. By repeating my use of yipping and yapping in one of your posts from today, you showed your own displeasure. That you went back weeks into the archives to locate things you believed you could attack me for only fortified the sense of displeasure you experienced. The second reason will become more apparent a bit further down the page.

I have no intention of dealing with all of your rather absurd criticisms. But let me not totally ignore them. You complained about my response to Ranting Andy thusly: “Only thing pitiful here is that you attack the man and his intelligence rather than correct him.” How you failed to miss that the entire first part of my response examined each and every one of the charts he had used to illustrate his point that he had found a new time that the cartel was taking down gold. It was pointed out that none of the 6 or 7 charts showed more than an $8 drop beginning at the appointed time and some of them actually showed that gold was going up. The charts did not support his conclusion. That you had to dig in the archives to reply to this comment of mine is troubling. Where you took it after your quoted opening criticism--that you would have physically assaulted me were you to have been present in the imaginary scenerio proposed to deal with Andy‘s pitiful presentation--it made me think that you are really pissed at me. That is so sad and yet too bad. Things are going to get worse. Trust me, it is coming.

In another of your postings you carped “ Correction, gold is money. If you have any doubts that this statement is true I suggest you consult 6000 or more years of history. Once again, you hold up your opinion as valid while trashing the opinion billions of other people hold”. Your position would have held more water if history did not decisively declare that gold ceased to be money when Nixon cut its last remaining attachment. Since then gold has been a commodity. It is not a matter of opinion as you would like me to believe, but a matter of fact. As for opinion, most believe that their paper money is really and truly money and that is reinforced every time that it is accepted for payment.

Let me now deal with the charge levelled against me by Schwerpunkt: “As for being someone's lap dog, I would proffer that this is what your aiming to be for OTE, you seem to be doing a lot of sucking up whenever he or she posts.” (Remember this quote, for it will come up again later.) Yes, in some of my responses to him, i have mentioned points of agreement and even once said that he had made me laugh. So what? Taken in context, it is cherry picking gone wild. The majority of my responses to OTE comments have attempted to offer a reasoned, different perspective to his own on a site relevant topic.

Let me now address how you responded to Lovetochat and FreedomFirst on this page, for it will be important for what is coming. You treated each as though they were not who they claimed to be, but Jim C. logged on under a different name. You based this entirely upon the fact that like Jim--and let us not forget the majority of Americans who rightly or wrongly see Lincoln as being worthy of his place on Mount Rushmore--their view differed from that of DiLorenzo. Is it really so incredible that others would also hold the majority opinion of Lincoln that the only explanation you could put forth for their comments is that they must be coming from Jim using a different account. Your charge that they have only ever posted in defence of Jim was lame given that neither have posted very much and probably most of it has concerned this one topic. Why would you immediately suspect these fine two folks are really not who they claim to be, but Jim under a different guise? Were it that they were supporting him in a position that was really out there, say that the decline of civilization is being orchestrated to facilitate the takeover of the planet by aliens with bad intentions, then there might be something to your criticism. But this is mainstream stuff coming from two folks who have barely posted. Your attack on these virtual newbies was both gratuitous and revealing.

You may not so much like to hear what it helped to reveal, for it is something about you. You had managed to perceive the 2 posters in a way that would not have crossed my mind and i understand that one would not be able to assume multiple identities without first wondering if it could be done. As this is not the first time that you have raised this as either an accusation or allegation, it means that you had at very least reached that stage of development where you could test the idea if you so choose.

Let us examine whether a far more compelling case can be made against you for precisely the same transgression you accused Jim of committing. With regard those you stand accused of being, it cannot be disputed that both have twice or more commenting history than your 2 supposed dupes combined, so there is more to draw upon. Given this far broader sampling from Verboten and Scherpunkt, or Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber as i prefer to call them, we should expect to see a greater degree of divergence of opinion from yours than you allege was demonstrated in the few posts by Lovetochat and FreedomFirst. But surprise, your two never disagree with you about anything. Yes, anything. Not just Lincoln. Not one of the 3 of you can stand Jim and most of your comments have been directed at letting that be known. Okay, no big deal, many seem to not appreciate Jim. That can be said to be majority opinion. However, the zeal you times 3 exhibit in going after him is uncommon. But hey, why not? We got 3 Lincoln supporters, we can admit to 3 zealous Jim detractors without concern that the more compelling case against you can still be made.

The 3 of you all have the same sort of contempt for me that you have for Jim. It shall not be disputed that it is more likely than not another example of majority opinion and so not conclusive, But it is now 2 separate things that the three of you are in total agreement.

Let us now add to the count that you all profess to believe in God, you are all not just Christians, but evangelic Christians and the 3 of you zealously dispute the theory of evolution while touting creationism. You all come across as believing that only gold is money. Not one of the 3 amigos differs in the slightest when it comes to what is thought of American foreign policy or domestic politics….This list of where the 3 faces of Hart have been in perfect alignment could be expanded. It is not necessary in that having shown so many more points of perfect harmony and not being able to identify even a single difference between them despite the considerably larger database from which to draw upon, a stronger case has already been made.





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Vox:

The attacks against both of us, primarily me for supporting Lincoln and the North against Slavery and the South, and you -- for speaking your mind on other issues -- have been uncalled for. These articles have been posted by this site for debate, not unconditional acceptance.

Anyone call go back and see what bias DiLorenzo has against Lincoln and the North and also that of his supporters. He nitpicks at what Lincoln did wrong -- and there is much that he did do wrong (the draft, for one) -- and completely ignores the much greater evil of slavery, as many of his supporters do here as well. When facts cannot be supported, when reality is denied, is when name calling ensues by many here.

What riles me most about DiLorenzo and Lew Rockwell is what lurks behind their repeated Lincoln diatribes. It is not racism -- far worse: it is an attack on the concept of government itself, any level of government. By attacking Lincoln and extolling the right of State secession for ANY reason, they are in essence advocating anarchy -- since secession would logically ripple down to the individual level. And the concept of objective law thrown out the window.

Just yesterday, in the news, 10 counties in the State of Colorado are pushing legislation to secede. I'm sure DiLorenzo would applaud this. If that goes through nothing prevents groups within those counties from seceding as well.

That is where we are headed and that is my main concern with the DiLorenzos of the world.

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Ok now we're going beyond grammar. Its a pretty good case.
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There are a few things you state that look like assumptions and then you mention main stream thinking. first of all:

"Let us now add to the count that you all profess to believe in God, you are all not just Christians, but evangelic Christians and the 3 of you zealously dispute the theory of evolution while touting creationism." All Christians whether Evangelical or Catholic will dispute evolution, nothing out of the main stream there. But you seem to have concluded that they are all Evangelical without any of them saying so. This to me looks like you’re making it up as there isn't one comment that both Evangelicals and Catholics wouldn't make in their posts. I do know that you hate Christians, I’ve read where you treat them as lesser beings so to me this looks like another of your attempts to discredit anyone who proclaims to be a Christian. I would say that you just made all of this up in an effort to present something to back what you’re saying.

You mention things being in the main stream when critiquing them. But you state "You all come across as believing that only gold is money." The great majority of people on this site believe gold to be money so it wouldn’t be unusual that they all believe that.

Then you put "Not one of the 3 amigos differs in the slightest when it comes to what is thought of American foreign policy or domestic politics…." Well I'm not one of them but I agree with everything they have said about the way our countries government has been interfering all over the world. This is also a mainstream item in these forums as there are posts by others with the same tone. When I look at your second post, part 2, I see nothing there that can't be named assumptions no matter how hard you try to show them as solid proof. You presented a dogs breakfast here, you’ve thrown together a bunch of nonsense and I for one don't believe any of your lengthy rants to be true. I suspect that because all three have gone after you, albeit rather harshly but certainly with less contempt than you show those you dislike, you are now trying to back pedal and regain some respect. Nothing more.
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Part 2

Let me take it yet one more step. In a post made some time ago using the name this response is addressed to, you claimed that your grandparents had come to Canada from Germany. Is it just a coincidence that your other 2 go by German monikers? Could be. But it could be another tell.

Let me finally focus on the most compelling evidence of all. It is the forensic evidence you have unwittingly left behind. What you may well ask could i possibly have left; having already demonstrated that out of well more than 200 posts, on things that all three of you have expressed your view, there has never been the slightest variance on so much as a single thing. Not a one.

And that brings me to the most damning coincidence of them all. Recall where I told you to remember the Schwerpunkt quote, for it would come into play later on? Well, this would be when. I will repaste it here again and then follow that by posting one from you taken from this page and then one from Verboten taken from 4 or so days ago.

“As for being someone's lap dog, I would proffer that this is what your aiming to be for OTE, you seem to be doing a lot of sucking up whenever he or she posts.“

“I think if your really honest with yourself you'll also find that the economy the north enjoyed was also fueled, of not completely then the majority of it by slavery.”

“Get over yourself, your not half as wise as you wish you were.”

Did you notice what poker players would refer to as the tell? It was there in all 3 sentences. My reference is to that most strikingly peculiar of all things shared in common and that is that they all (and with great consistency throughout the many posts, not just the 3 presented) employ “your” when what is meant is “you’re”. Now what do you suppose the odds are of all 3 not only agreeing about absolutely everything, but also sharing the very same problem with grammar?

Hart, you’re busted. All those horrible things you ineffectually accused others of doing you have been doing for months, perhaps years. Go back and read your accusations to understand what others should feel for you.

This not only concludes my response to you, it is the last time i shall directly respond to anything you might still have the nerve to post. Quite simply put, a person such as yourself is not worth a moment more of my time.
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You dolt. If we were playing poker I would already have all your cash. You completely missed the possibility that we work in the same office as do half a dozen other people that frequent these forums. Being blinded as usual by the over inflated opinion you have of yourself you missed this one very obvious item. Typically when one of us reads your pathetic attempt to slaughter an opinion we all post relatively close together. This is because we have a good laugh at your (oops there it is again) expense and then comment. So how does this make us one person? And so it's clear, we do not always agree on many things posted here. Jim C posting what doesn't belong and how moronic your own ranting's are, these two things we do agree on. And your nitpicking on the word "your"? You use this as the CSI tell, I could point out several others here that use the same spelling. Once again you've shown that your nothing but a puffed up jack ass.
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While I don't wish to extend a flame war I do wish to address a few things that have been stated. I want to make sure that I at least did something to address what's going on here.

Gold is money. Simply because a dead president decided that gold would no longer back the fiat in that country does not universally remove it from the minds of men as money. You seem to miss this one point, it’s what people BELIEVE to be money that has value, you only ever address what is officially backed as being money. In fact it is the only universal money in existence today. I can take any fraction of gold coin minted today and use it as cash in countries from Chad to new Zealand, Denmark to Chile. I can guarantee you that if I tried to use a commodity like corn I would be tossed out of the shop. I don't know how many people you have personally quizzed but I would suggest you do, ask them if they think gold is money or jewelry. Don't infer in the way you ask them which answer you want to get and you will be surprised. You are battling what people all over have believed for thousands of years, gold is money.

I read where Hart told you to man up, write articles for posting in these forums. While his post was harsh, if indeed you have such an understanding of what's going on in the world why are you not on the contributor list here? I do take issue with the way you generally, but not always, throw in remarks about the intellectual capabilities of the people writing the articles. To me this shows a lack of common sense for any person that is willing to enter a discussion must accept without prejudice that there will be opposing points of view which should be discussed rationally and without personal attacks.

Being relatively new to these forums I have gone back through far too many posts by yourself and others here. What I've found is that the closer we get to today’s date what you post seems to contain less in the way of valid material and more ranting and throwing around insults. I would add this is the same for Hart.

The three members you chose to confront about being the same person are not the only ones who have posted their displeasure with Jim C and the way he brings unrelated items into a topic. I understand that Jim C wants everyone to know that the author may have views that oppose his own but these are generally not within the range of the topic at hand. Jim C does push many threads off topic and I for one wish he would stop it already. There are many other forums where his opinions, as he expresses them, would be better suited. I know this for a fact as I have previously posted about my daughters hunger for all things related to the civil war which has taken us on a journey through many sites devoted to the type of discussion Jim C wishes to hold here.

Having read through many old posts I to like probably many others have wondered, but only Hart has brought up, if Jim C and Lovetochat is the same person. For someone who seems to be well educated, Vox I don't understand how this never came to mind before this time? When you used the fact that Hart once posted that his grandparents came from Germany and then used the fact that Schwerpunkt and Verboten are German words, I had to think that the name you use is German. As I recall a discussion on evolution and God, some professor listed the fact that vox kadavergehorsamkeit translates to the voice of zombie obedience, also German no?

I'm not surprised that the three you went after as being one work in the same office, I to work with a gal who frequents these forums and has on a few occasion posted. Her views and mine are often very similar, would you go so far as to say that because we agree and we have posted here we are the same person?

Using the word “your” to conclude any investigative work seems premature. Let’s do some more Sherlock Holmes type work. If as Hart indicated they all work in the same office then there is a very good chance that they all use the same software, software that would allow for the use of “your” in place of “you’re” when spell check is used. I would also suggest that the same may hold for other people posting here. It could even be something as simple as they all use the same browser which has a spell check function and sets itself to whatever region they live in. Not saying this is what happened, but I am stating that your conclusion is by no means the final word. In this thread you use “your” extensively in your responses where in some places I would have used “you’re”. Any grade school student would tell you’re reading something into nothing.

I wish all of you would stick to posting about the topic at hand and that ALL of you would stop attacking people personally, authors and commenters. You should all grow up!

I think I have made my point so I’ll end here.

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Thank you for your lengthy response. Let me respond to this by dealing with your central theme and if time permits, i shall touch on some of the peripheral matters raised in your post. If properly understood, your assertion would be that my case against Hart for being what he has defined as a troll is rather weak.

Let us examine why you think so. Your first defence of Hart's was "The three members you chose to confront about being the same person are not the only ones who have posted their displeasure with Jim C and the way he brings unrelated items into a topic." I am not sure why you choose to lead with that, for it had been conceded in my post that on its own, it was meaningless given that the majority opinion of Jim was rather unfavourable. It was just the first of many points of perfect agreement shared by the 3 are 1. It along with my second example (a negative view of my comments) of points of perfect agreement were the weakest cited in my case and were readily admitted as being such.

In defence of Hart, you choose to not mention any other examples cited by myself exampling many more things where all 3 are in perfect agreement. And these additional examples could not so readily be explained away, as were the first pair used to start building the case. Rather, you attempted to deal with this part of my case by citing a case from your personal experience. "I'm not surprised that the three you went after as being one work in the same office, I to work with a gal who frequents these forums and has on a few occasion posted. Her views and mine are often very similar, would you go so far as to say that because we agree and we have posted here we are the same person?"

The key part to be understood is that you and your friend from work, neither of you having more than a very few posts under your belt, agree about Jim. As previously stated, that is the majority opinion, so it is not surprising that you would agree on this and be assured that your doing so does not cause me to be suspicious of you. What would be surprising would be finding that the two of you agreed upon absolutely everything, without exception. And it would be even more startling to learn that there is actually not only a third commenter to this site at the place you work, but that they also shared every single last one of the views held by you and your one known co-worker. As presented by you, the two of you often, not always and not about all things, have similar, not precisely the same, opinions. And that is just 2 of you. With Hart there are well over 200 posts from which we can search for even 1 degree of separation without finding a single one. It cannot be shown where even the tiniest divergence of thought occurs in the record, for none exists. Neither Hart nor any who would seek to defend him can point to a single example. And as Hart has pontificated upon quite a far ranging number of subjects by now, the examples of complete and total agreement among his 3 user accounts are too extensive to merely ignore, especially since a number of the positions taken are not in the mainstream.

It was not my intention to imply that any user account that features a German name should be suspected of being another of Hart's aliases. Darenkash was not singled out as another possibility and quite obviously i was not accusing myself of being another of Hart's plants. It was merely pointed out as a curious fact that his 2 aliases have German names. i certainly did not try to make a great deal out of it. It was merely wondered if this might be a tell.

Let us now turn our attention to how you responded to the forensic case. You stated, "If as Hart indicated they all work in the same office then there is a very good chance that they all use the same software, software that would allow for the use of “your” in place of “you’re” when spell check is used. I would also suggest that the same may hold for other people posting here. It could even be something as simple as they all use the same browser which has a spell check function and sets itself to whatever region they live in. Not saying this is what happened, but I am stating that your conclusion is by no means the final word. In this thread you use “your” extensively in your responses where in some places I would have used “you’re”. Any grade school student would tell you’re reading something into nothing."

To begin with, you are being overly uncritical in allowing for yet another point of perfect agreement to be used to explain away all of those other points of complete convergence without noting how very unlikely it would be for 3 of the 100 or fewer posters to this site this year to all be gainfully employed with the same company. But let me allow for the possibility, no matter how very remote it be. We are then left with 3 people who on paper cannot be told apart, all working for the same company. They are all so unsupervised that they can spend large parts of their days using the company's time to write their hate filled diatribes. Additionally, as they all used to make spelling mistakes before the 24h gold site got an upgrade, it would be safer to assume that though they may have all had access to the same softwear, none of them used it; yet another unexplained coincidence. (The region they might live in can have no possible bearing on when to use your and when to use you're in a sentence and it was--quite frankly--ridiculous of you to have offered it as a possible explanation of this extraordinary coincidence). Be that as it may, there is no spell check softwear that would find you're to be a spelling mistake, for it is a perfectly proper word. If the softwear was a bit more sophisticated, at very most would it suggest that its use be changed to you are. If any softwear is being used, then as you suggest, it would not be softwear that catches this grammatical error, for the mistake is never caught. And that would mean that all 3 not only share absolutely everything else in common, they all make the very same mistake and they do so consistently, regardless of where they may be employed, what softwear is or is not used and irrespective of whatever browser they may all be using. Just ask yourself if you and your friend from work both make the very same mistake when writing and that you both do it all the time? Would there really not be someone there who would catch the mistake and correct you? Now we must believe that the 3 of them have not a degree of separation between them in all of their many expressed views, they all work in the same place, they all contribute to this site, they are all particularly zealous in the expression of their mutually shared opinions and not one of them understands that your is not interchangeable for you're....You could not have been serious about questioning my own use of the 2 words. Where exactly might you have substituted you're for my use of your in my post? The 2 words are most certainly not interchangeable. Your conclusion that i am reading something into nothing ignores the common sense notion that tells us where there is smoke there is fire. And in this case, there is an awful lot of smoke coming from many different sources, certainly far too many to be so casually dismissed by you or anyone else capable of looking at the evidence with a dispassionate eye. At very least, it must be admitted that i have presented a far more compelling case for Hart having these 2 aliases then he was able to present in accusing Lovetochat and FreedomFirst, who had all of a dozen posts between them and agreed upon a single thing, their opinion of Lincoln, which itself is the most common to be found in the American mainstream.

Should you or anyone else wish to respond in defence of Hart, you will have to point to at least 1 example where the 3 i accuse of really being 1 have differed from each other on anything if you want to be taken seriously. But i am certain that not a single example exists.
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“Should you or anyone else wish to respond in defence of Hart, you will have to point to at least 1 example where the 3 i accuse of really being 1 have differed from each other on anything if you want to be taken seriously.”

Hold on now princess. Your laying the charge, the burden of proof is upon you. If you have nothing other than your speculation and opinion you have no case.

By the way, you spelled "defence" incorrectly. It should be 'defense'.
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Vox, you missed on so many levels. You say your open to someone coming to the defence of Hart but the person would have to do it on your terms. So in other words you feel you have the right to set the rules for the game and then play the judge. My isn’t that big of you. Sorry but that’s not the way things go in the real world. By the way, you seem to have ignored my previous post, not by chance I would venture to guess. I’ll bet my gold against your fiat that you simply don’t like to have the nasty truth about yourself thrown in your face (oops should that be your or you’re, need an English prof here). By the way, I’ve read where Hart has agreed with both you and Jim C. Does that make him one of your plants? Or maybe Jim C is a plant? It could get so confusing. Jim C has agreed with you in this very thread, looking back at some of his other posts he agrees with you in them as well. Sniff sniff, smells like a plant. I also note from reading a crap load of both his and your own messages that you have never told him to shut up or chosen to correct him in his faulty interpretation of why Lincoln went to war. How do we handle that? What rules can you make up as you go to cover this little matter? It’s starting to look a lot like Jim C, vox kadavergehorsamkeit and Lovetochat might be the same person.

You base your argument on whether three people are actually one completely on flawed assumptions, the fact they use “your” when in places where “you’re” would be grammatically correct and the fact that not once have the three been in disagreement with each other. You did make something out of the fact that two of them have names with German origins and that Harts grandparents came from Germany. You tried rather unsuccessfully to make this very weak link part of your claim and then you reduce its value in a reply when challenged. The kind of tactic a not so well trained lawyer trainee would make. You claim that because all three of them agree without any divergence in so many cases that this must indicate they are all one person. That’s it, that’s the whole of your prosecution? With this kind of amateur circumstantial evidence you wouldn’t even make it through the first five minutes of a discovery. Case dismissed!

In a classic example of what you omitted in an effort to further your own case, you missed mentioning (just one of many posts) http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-ambush-at-the-comex-corral.aspx?article=4335212868G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Darryl+Robert+Schoon

In the post linked above Schwerpunkt goes into some detail about your lack of understanding when talking about rigged markets, the role gold plays as international money, and the Cypress bail in. I see where Schwerpunkt puts out some links for you to look at. You didn’t like that he basically referenced your comments about Austrians and stated that you were calling them terrorists amongst other things. All he did was what you do so often, he put a little twist into your words. Seems you don’t like it when people pull your own stunts on you. When I look at the remarks that Verboten and Hart make later in the thread I see nothing that you could use to assume these two are one person (or three persons with Schwerpunkt). You were given details which you always ask for but never provide. Your response was, shall we say lacking. I recall we had quite a discussion on that topic with my own thoughts diverging from the other three, lively and not one foul word was uttered which is something you seem to be unable to control in yourself.

Let’s look at where else you made a very amateur mistake that will now count against you. You claim that with Hart and the others there are well over 200 posts from which to draw evidence. You have combined their total posts to arrive at this number. Broken down it’s easy to see that your fudging the numbers again in a weak attempt to bolster your point (more smoke and mirrors which you so readily accuse others of doing), to make it look like Hart posted over 200 times and that the others agreed with him each time but that’s not the truth. If we look at the number of post as listed in each person’s profile, which tracks total posts for everyone, it breaks down this way, Hart 162, Verboten 44, and Schwerpunkt 27. You have twisted the numbers to your liking and then made it appear as if you had real evidence. If you look at when each one registered it’s obvious to even feebleminded individuals that there is no conspiracy (which is what you seem to be implying) to back each other or any one of them up. Oh I can’t wait for you to start accusing me of being another plant because I already admitted I work with the three people you seem bent on harassing. Go on, we all know that’s where you’re going next. Any person that answered this in defense of Hart, other than maybe OTE, would be suspect in your paranoid drug addled mind. Wait, let’s get Tom in on this… Yes that’s right, I’ve done a lot of reading today and had to endure the slander and mindless abuse you throw around but I’ve also seen much where you were taken to task for poor judgment and putting words in other people mouths. For the life of me I can’t imagine why the three you seek to prosecute even bother trying to reason with you but I do understand the way they have gone after you for your arrogance and abusive tactics.

Please leave the detective work to those who are far better suited at it than you are. Your starting to look like nothing more than a vindictive little child. And, I do expect a response from you on my post outlining your nasty attitude. Unless of course you don’t feel you’re up to the challenge of defending your own arrogant abuse of others and your own bungling. And yes, before you go using the same old line you so enjoy, I have read your whole post(s) and understand, to the best of any sane person’s ability to understand an insane persons mind, what you said.

Balls in your court. Shall we dance? Before you say yes, you should reread my previous post and examine how much deeper you want to get in the way of sullying your name.

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LMAO. I have to comment on this lunacy because this is just to good to ignore. Vox in your last post you used "softwear" instead of software several times. So then, who the hell are you to criticize anyone on the way they spell or the grammar they use?

With no disrespect intended to Darenkash. Darenkash is not of Germanic decent, please do point out where you got this information since several internet searches have provided nothing. The name Kash, which one could easily be derived as being the persons last name in Darenkash, comes from the Dominican and means runt. Daren, alternate spelling of Darren is Gaelic and means great. Looks like vox made up another little gem to defend himself.

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Ouh hold up a sec. It appears that vox has joined the tinfoil hat bunch and is now declaring this(us) a conspiracy. I and two others are actually one. I can't wait for the movie to come out. Maybe we can get in some cameo appearances? Can we get Jack Nicholson to play Hart? You want the truth, you can't handle the truth! Shades down, deal with it.

Coffee tomorrow is going to be a hilarious 15 minutes.
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Ok Vox, now you’re starting to get under my skin with your repeated attempts to indicate three people here are actually only one and your lame response to my last post. You posted “To begin with, you are being overly uncritical in allowing for yet another point of perfect agreement to be used to explain away all of those other points of complete convergence without noting how very unlikely it would be for 3 of the 100 or fewer posters to this site this year to all be gainfully employed with the same company.” How can you in good conscience state “another point of perfect agreement”? Agreement with whom, the imaginary people inside your head? You can agree with yourself or the voice in your head but this goes back to what Hart and company have been saying about you for some time, you only consider your own opinion as valid. I haven’t seen anyone else here agree with you so that statement is a fail.

“But let me allow for the possibility, no matter how very remote it be. We are then left with 3 people who on paper cannot be told apart, all working for the same company.” No matter how remote it could be? I’ve already told you that in our office, counting myself there are two people who visit and post here so the likelihood that there is an office wherein three people visit and post here is not farfetched at all. As for telling them apart, I am perfectly able to do so. You never once looked at the style they each use or how one is more aggressive than the other two while one tends to lean more to the middle on many subjects. You have exhibited no personal or social skills throughout this whole lame investigation of yours.

“We are then left with 3 people who on paper cannot be told apart, all working for the same company.” You have obviously never spent much time in an environment where you have to work closely with other people. I have and I can tell you that when people spend large amounts of time together they start to take on behaviors and attitudes from the herd. They develop a shared herd attitude. Good grief, here for the longest time I thought you were an educated person!

“They are all so unsupervised that they can spend large parts of their days using the company's time to write their hate filled diatribes.” Who are you to determine how much time they spend online and if they even do it while they are supposed to be engaged in work activities? How do you know if they are employed by the hour of if they are contracted? Are you now an all seeing oracle as well who can traverse continents with your mind to remotely view others? If so why have you not informed their employer that they are wasting company time if in fact that is what’s happening.

“Additionally, as they all used to make spelling mistakes before the 24h gold site got an upgrade, it would be safer to assume that though they may have all had access to the same softwear, none of them used it; yet another unexplained coincidence.” What has an update on 24gold.com got to do with anyone’s spelling? Does the site now spell check? If it does why did it not catch your mistaken use of softwear instead of software? The only time it would be safer to assume (and here’s the stickler, you have only made assumptions throughout your posts) is if it benefits your attempt to further discredit these three people. How do you know none of them used it, were you there when they posted or are you guessing? I’d say your guessing, heck my daughter says your guessing. It may be a coincidence but why does it need explaining unless you want to use it to further your very weak case against them.

“Be that as it may, there is no spell check softwear that would find you're to be a spelling mistake, for it is a perfectly proper word.” Here’s where you show how computer illiterate you are. When I use Microsoft Word and type your or you’re in the wrong place the grammar check underlines it with the red squiggly line. But I need to turn on spell and grammar checking. If its turned off it won’t catch the error. So, as OTE has on occasion mentioned to you elsewhere, you just pulled that one out of your ass. By the way, if you used any kind of software that checks spelling and grammar you wouldn’t have so many mistakes where “softwear” should be ‘software’.

All of your accusations are based on the following:

• The spelling of your vs. you’re
• The three have all posted against you and Jim C
• They never challenge one another
• There has never been any posted deviation of the front they present
• A completely feeble attempt to guess at their religious affiliations
• All three defend creation (and I suggest these last two items are really why you have gone after them with a vengeance since you hate all Christians)
None of the above would be acceptable in any court of law but you hold your opinion, conjecture, and assumptions higher than that of a court.

And I do not agree, you have not presented a more compelling case that the three you persecute are one and the same than they have that Jim C and Lovetochat are the same person. You’ve posted reams of BS and proved nothing while talking yourself into a frenzy. So to wrap it up, Vox you’ve shown that you are nothing more than what the others have called you, a bitter old man. From this day forward your posts will be considered for what they are and have been proven to be, trash and nothing more.
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You dolt. If we were playing poker I would already have all your cash. You completely missed the possibility that we work in the same office as do half a dozen other people that frequent these forums. Being blinded as usual by the over inflated opinion you have of yourself you missed this one very obvious item. Typically when one of us reads your pathetic attempt to slaughter an opinion we all post relatively close together. This is because we have a good laugh at your (oops there it is again) expense and then comment. So how does this make us one person? And so it's clear, we do not always agree on many things posted here. Jim C posting what doesn't belong and how moronic your own ranting's are, these two things we do agree on. And your nitpicking on the word "your"? You use this as the CSI tell, I could point out several others here that use the same spelling. Once again you've shown that your nothing but a puffed up jack ass.
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Hey Vox, you can call me Spokes or whatever your drug addled brain wants. Guess what? I work with Verboten, Hart, and Schwerpunkt. And guess what else, we don’t share a brain or even a computer. Below, for everyone’s enjoyment I have done a little research through the various posts Vox has made here in only the last few months, who knows how many bonehead comments and personal assaults were made prior to that. Let’s call these items Voxisms. What you will find here gentle reader is that Vox is a nasty nasty person. I’ve included links here so that no one can claim I made these things up. After reading this crap most would agree, it would be good if Vox would shut up and forget 24hgold.com exists.

Vox, you make comments that are neither witty or even mildly entertaining, they are however indicative of a soured old armchair sniper, the type that has no real world experience but just loves to pontificate and throw insults at anyone who dares to publish anything here that doesn’t meet with your (oops better check the spell check on that one) opinions. And while I’m at it, your (check that one too) opinions are of little value for you have never once, that I’ve seen, backed up what you say with documentation, internet or published.

So without more of my own ranting let’s move on to Voxisms:

“That aside, only the most lame brained of the idiot class will put any stock in a price prediction that looks so far into the future. As for those that make such predictions, they can only hope that one fine day, their intelligence will be so elevated that they too can be considered a member of the idiot class.” Always ample with your insults and no real alternatives.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-20-years-from-now-gold--12-000--silver--1-000--update.aspx?article=4424342396G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Willem+Weytjens


“The almost total lack of intellectual curiosity--or perhaps honesty--that seems to permeate almost every corner of this tiny sector of the economy is unlike anything to be found in any other. Gold is a freakin' commodity. It is not a religion. It cannot go in just one direction. Those who tell you otherwise, or that gold only goes down because of manipulation, are charlatans who most likely have something to sell you.” Does fiat money only go in only one direction? No so then it must also by your definition be a commodity yet it’s called money.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-somebody-is-terrified-of-gold-s-likely-message-grandich-tells-bull-market-thinking.aspx?article=4423074850G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Chris+Powell

“A 7 year old child with limited intelligence could have done a better job of making sense of those charts. It is shameful what this ditz attempts to pass off as research. Were i a teacher and he my student who had handed in this assignment, i would have made him stand in the corner wearing a conically shaped hat made from a sheet of lined paper with dimensions of 14 by 8 and 1/2 inches....Pitiful. Absolutely pitiful.” Only thing pitiful is your ability to stay calm and rash when responding. You attack the individual and offer nothing as an alternative.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-crybaby-attack.aspx?article=4422795892G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Ranting+Andy

Then there was that whole pile of BS you posted about a planet that was made of diamonds and a comet made of gold. Total hogwash, nothing to back it up but you use it to demean someone else’s opinion.

“But like anything with considerable intrinsic value, gold makes for piss-poor money.” So your opinion of what gold is holds more value than the opinions of several billions people?
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-copernicus-galileo-and-gold-part-ii.aspx?article=4411696300G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Hugo+Salinas+Price

“Gold is not money. It used to be and may again in the future be money. But it is now no more money than are sea shells.” Ok Mr. Vox Bernaki, you know how often old Ben has been correct yet you make the same false statements.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-don-t-dismiss-the-possibility-of-gold-confiscation.aspx?article=4402725598G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Jeff+Thomas

“More hysterical babbling from my favourite Preparation H abuser. While decency prevents me from telling you what has poor Mac's belly so grotesquely distended, let me just say that an enema might cure what ails him.” Totally uncalled for and abusive statement with no alternative to what the author wrote. You really are the problem in these forums, not the others you attack.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-dhs-source-warns--world-war-about-to-break-out-will-kill-millions-of-people-.aspx?article=4405118764G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Mac+Slavo

“Pure unadulterated bovine manure. The Fed cannot order that. They lack the authority to do so. Mac has been overdosing on the Preparation H again.” What is it with you and Preparation H? Are you deflecting here?
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-they-re-going-to-attempt-this-one-way-or-another-will-you-send-your-sons-and-daughters.aspx?article=4393828306G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Mac+Slavo

“It looks like this article got lost on its way to being posted on the DEAD COMPOSERS I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT web site. Someone should call the lost and found department. While at it, we should take up a collection for the web master to send him or her for a PET scan of their cranial cavity. I am not sure if something is growing in there that should not be, or if it has always been empty.... Buddy, wake up! Do you know where you are” And you wonder why the admins never listen to you while others laugh at you. You really are a jackass.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-verdi-a-towering-genius.aspx?article=4398521652G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Peter+McKenzie-Brown

“But for those who do not care about facts, this is a great piece that will enable them to continue believing the utter nonsense that has rendered their critical faculties utterly useless. i mean, they could not put it on the internet if it was not true, could they?” You sure like insulting others, such a shame you don’t have the same tolerance yourself.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-the-great-silver-mystery---and-the-greatest-secret-of-all-time-.aspx?article=2650977026G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Treasures+and+Gold+Fever

“This article by Slavo sounds like the paranoid delusions of someone who has overdosed on Preparation H.” Really, what is it with you and Preparation H? Could it be you suffer from hemorrhoids and this is why you’re such an old jackass to people? This would shed light on the focus you show the product.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-they-re-going-to-attempt-this-one-way-or-another-will-you-send-your-sons-and-daughters.aspx?article=4393828306G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Mac+Slavo

“What pure, unvarnished idiocy!” Only idiocy is that you would again stoop to abuse.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-real-metal-isn-t-backing-up-short-sales-maguire-tells-king-world-news.aspx?article=4329702224G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Chris+Powell

“Sadly, too many of those who want to educate their children at home want to do so because they want to teach their kids that the earth is flat or some other gibberish. Far too few home schooled kids will grow up to become doctors, engineers, scientists or anything else that requires a real education.” Really? And how do you know this, back it up with stats. Every home schooled child I know excels beyond school standards.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-homeschooling-the-future-of-liberty.aspx?article=4321465622G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Ron+Paul

“DiLorenzo is a pathetic little man filled with bile. Now excuse me. i must go shower again.” I dare say the only person here filled with bile is Vox.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-krugman----and-the-soviet-poverty-law-center.aspx?article=4312920698G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Tom+DiLorenzo

“Such forward looking price predictions are without value; made by morons for consumption by fools.” Yet you yourself continually point out that you make predictions. How many of yours have been spot on? Please back it up with stats and not opinions.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-gold-to-fall-to-1400-by-end-2013-but-could-see-2000-next-year--cyprus-will-lose-e.aspx?article=4299809672G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Ben+Traynor

vox kadavergehorsamkeit, you are the problem you seek to eliminate.
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Ah HA!

(more LOLs)

I must say that is is a VERY common error today. I see it more often than not.
* your, you're
* its, it's
* where, we're
I see these all the time.

Vox, A court of law wouldn't entertain this as "evidence" for a second. Coincidence at best perhaps.

Either way it seems to have gained a most animated response which I think is part of your game. You would like to "troll the troll" a little and play him at his own game, no?

It's a rigged game my friend. If you lose then you empower the troll. If you win you STILL empower the troll with new and superior techniques.

All that being said I did enjoy your analysis and I'm not disputing your claims. You know each other better than I do. I just don't think this is quite as "slam dunk" conclusive as you seem to.

;)

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FIRE THE SITE ADMINISTRATORS!

We are cursed with the idiots running this site. They do not give a shit about keeping this site devoted to precious metals and those matters closely related. They regularly allow articles to be posted that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gold, silver, platinum, palladium, banking, stock and bond markets, economic theory, monetary theory and the political machinations that influence these matters. Articles like this do not belong here. The American civil war took place 150 freakin' years ago and has didley squat to do with anything even remotely connected to any of the subjects listed. Why do the idiots allow this crap to be posted? Are they brain dead?

FIRE THE BUMS! They are incompetent dolts. Fire every single last one of them.
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Nobody makes you read it. If you have - why not just answer the man's points lucidly one by one? To quote Edward Gibbon 'Attacking the attorney rather than the defendant' gives your comment no meaning, to me.
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So you think American History has nothing to do with banking ?
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Some US history does, yes. This article and many others just like it by the same author do not. The word bank is not used even once, or had you failed to notice? These DiLorenzo pieces have no more business being posted here than the terribly misplaced articles on Verdi. They cast not a single lumen on this or any other site appropriate subject matter. Not a one. The sole objective of the site administrators in placing such irrelevant pieces is to generate web traffic. As the Verdi pieces did not do the job, they have stopped placing them here. But DiLorenzo's pieces generate a good deal of traffic and so we are treated to a new one every bloody week. And with the predictability of a fine Rolex watch movement, we are assured that Jimbo will rail against DiLorenzo, Hart will rail against Jimbo and Hart's lap dogs, Verboten and Schwerpunkt will defend their master, yipping and yapping at Jimbo. It is a safer bet than picking the Harlem Globetrotters to beat the Washington Generals.

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages; it is time to stop the madness. Either fire the bums who run this site or change its name to Irrelevant Crap Meant Only to Generate Traffic.
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Hey Vox, stop your jackass yipping. I am not nor will I be Hart's lapdog. Simply because I may agree with Hart on the useless amount of data base space that Jim C occupies does not make me Hart's lapdog. Nor does my challenging you make me anyone's lapdog. You are just as guilty as Jim C when it comes to derailing threads and personal attacks so shut your yap already.
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Oh great, the 24hgold wannabee cop has popped up again. Give it a rest Vox, your droll, to the point of making people nauseous. As for being someone's lap dog, I would proffer that this is what your aiming to be for OTE, you seem to be doing a lot of sucking up whenever he or she posts.

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I forgot to ad one item. If you don't like how the site is run, who's material they run, or what adds they run, then shut up, put your money where your rather cavernous mouth seems to be and buy the site so you can admin it yourself.
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I read with much amusement and, dare I say it, agreement.
Folks I'm not taking any sides here.... I'm from Australia with an outsider's view of US history and politics

I've had a couple of "run-ins" with Vox myself but from what I've seen this is a fair take on matters.

Give credit where credit is due I say and keep the laughs coming.
:)


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Stop feeding the troll and he will go away. If one person throws him a banana once in a while, he will stay forever.
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It's been tried, this troll (Jim C) is like a bad stink and just won't go away.
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Once again Jim C derails a discussion. If only the admins would remove this guys account we could all be spared the garbage he posts every week.
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The ignorance of history by individuals on this site is mind-boggling. To somehow support a state or a state's rights for this or that while ignoring the human rights violations of that state is beyond contempt.

States have no rights -- only individuals do. And a state exists for the sole purpose of protecting those rights. The moment such a state repudiates that protection is the moment that state has no purpose; the individuals of said state having the moral authority to overthrow it.

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No Jim, your failing to accept that Lincoln wasn't the hero you wish he was is mind boggling when you consider the mountain of historical evidence that proves he was a criminal and didn't give a rats ass about slaves or their conditions. How someone who seems to be in possession of some education can continually deny that Lincoln started the war not because of slavery but because of a need to control rebellious states, even though they had the right to secede, is hard to fathom in todays world where information is only a click away for those wishing to know the truth.
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Since the people in southern states didn't rise up in rebellion it would appear, however unfortunate for the slaves, that the people felt no need to overthrow their governments.

However taking your logic of intervening for the sake of slaves alone one set further, why not have the US military stop chasing non-existent terrorists and invade countries like Saudi Arabia (or many others) that still hold slaves, albeit in fewer numbers and different nationalities? Well you already know why don't you, the good old petro buck and a stable oil supply. Seems this government has looked away from today's slaves since it benefits them and by default yourself. What have you done to help today's slaves? What have you done to help stop girls being taken from several different countries to work as sex slaves? Where does your moral compass point today wherein you can effect change instead of rehashing what has happened and can no longer be changed?

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DiLorenzo is of that warped mindset that believed the South had a right to secede from the Union -- somehow believing that Jefferson's Declaration of Independence applied that stated ''whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government . . .."'

The problem is that, in the case of the North, that was no such destruction of rights that warranted the violent actions of the South -- their initiation of violence at Fort Sumter. As such, those actions were properly deemed an insurrection by President Lincoln. The collection of Southern States, those that enforced slavery upon human beings, was in fact a cabal of criminals and ought to have been cleansed long before 1860. It was the Southern greed for the expansion of its slave system to newly formed states (Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854 pushed by Democrat Stephen Douglas and President Buchannan) and the moral integrity and determination of the North and the newly formed Republican Party to stop it that lit the fuse for the coming conflict.

No amount of verbiage by DiLorenzo can cover such willful blindness. One cannot argue for the individual rights of a state or group of states when those states are themselves trampling on individual rights -- slavery.
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Jim C, why is it you never take president Lincoln to task for not freeing the slaves in the north prior to supposedly going to war to do the same for slaves in the south? Why do you not slam Lincolns memory for his allowing for thousands of slaves to die in horrible conditions in the north while he sat on a veranda sipping tea brought to him by slaves? Why do you suggest Lincoln was right to allow these northern slaves to suffer, to turn his head and look away from what was happening right at his door step, just because it would have been unpopular for him personally if freeing slaves was so important to him? Why do you not take issue with Lincoln for the unfair taxes he placed on the south which resulted in the action the south took at Ft. Sumter? Why do you keep trying to rewrite the history books? What is so important about Lincoln for you that you would champion someone who allowed slaves to die while he played politics? How can you champion someone who sent thousands of men to their deaths, and caused the deaths of thousands of innocents, in a war because he wanted nothing more than to control trade in the south? Do you think that killing people today is justified in order to control trade and commerce?

How can you be so ignorant of historical facts? Why are you being so selective in which propaganda you wish promoted?

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Frankly insane for Thomas and you to put the onus on Lincoln for slavery who was just elected a few months earlier, and who had campaigned against the Kansas act extending slavery to new states. History just does't support your views.
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Lovetochat, I find it interesting that every comment you make is in support of Jim C. It would appear that your whole life rotates around the writings of Jim C and this leads one to question who you are. So, really Jim, if you feel lonely and need support from someone else here, creating an alternate profile and then so blatantly giving yourself unwavering support is just juvenile and very apparent to anyone who frequents this site.

Grow up.

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So anybody who supports the fact that Lincoln abolished slavery is some kind of plant? I'd rather talk about gold and silver but the nonsense that the South somehow had the moral high ground in the Civil War is ridiculous.

And Thomas D. thinks the term 'neo-confederate' is a badge of honor?

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Lincoln did not abolish slavery. The Thirteenth Amendment did that. Lincoln's suspension of the Constitution and his invasion and occupation of the Southern States gave him the moral low ground.
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If you wish to read that into my statement do so at your folly. My point was simple, Lovetochat only comments when Jim C needs some back up and only in defense of Jim C.

So how exactly does that translate into my calling anyone who would defend Lincoln a plant. I do have to wonder though about the fact that the only two other times you've posted, one was in complete defense of Jim C and the other was a half hearted defense of Jim C.

Odd?
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But you, the strongest defender of DiLorenzo, Kunstler, and Ron Paul are not a troll from the Lew Rockwell crew?

I agree wholeheartedly with Jim C's critique of Thomas DiLorenzo and will continue to do so.

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You truly gave yourself away this time Jim C, err I mean Lovetochat.

While you may suspect that I only defend the authors you listed you are wrong. I support many others and I take issue with internet trolls such as yourself. But do I defend them because I completely accept what they have to say as gospel? No. I just don't clutter discussions with trash that takes the discussion off topic like you do Jim C. And if you took your head out of that dark private spot for a moment you might actually be able to tell the difference between what I'm doing now and what you do in every post you make.

As always, because I suspect multi-sylable words may cause you strain I'll keep this short. I have found much that I disagree with in articles written by all three authors. I take what they have to say and digest it for what it's worth. What I don't do is drag up old crap that makes no sense when help up against the article that is being discussed simply to try discrediting them in the post being discussed. You see, all you do is try to slander anyone who dares to post something that doesn't work in Jimmy C's world. That's right, your a troll. Let me define this a little better, Jim C when you rant about the fact that DiLorenzo hasn't written anything that chastises the south for keeping slaves when the article had nothing to do with those in the south keeping slaves it makes no sense. It's like complaining about the price of lemons in a discussion on toiletries. Well it doesn't make sense to anyone who's made it past the third grade. When you spew hate against Ron Paul telling the word that he is firmly against central government and would rather have all states secede when the mans post was about the injustice of US military intervention in some small third world country do you really believe it makes sense? Well it doesn't.

As said so many times before, grow up.



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There are problems with your analysis, Mr.C.
You believe secession for the first seven states could not apply because no rights had been violated. That is not for you to determine. The final determiner of those rights is the state itself. That is, the people of the state had that right. The people of the states which seceded voted in convention to do so. There was no insurrection. The Constitution prohibited states from attacking one another and the federal military could not enter a state unless invited by the state governor to stop an insurrection or foreign invasion. Lincoln was not invited.

The reasons for secession are listed by some of the states in their articles of secession. These include the loss of control the government; the unjust distribution of taxes; the second class status of slave holders who were not allowed to settle in territories administered for all of the states by the federal government. States were nullifying federal fugitive slave laws in violation of the Constitution.

The Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854 was a prid pro quo for the South agreeing to a northern route for the trans-continental railroad from Lincoln's Chicago to San Francisco. The South needed the two Senators from Kansas to prevent the Republican Party from implementing the old Whig American System, that Lincoln endorsed, and the North had been trying to pass since 1828. They did not get them and in 1860 the Morrill Tariff had passed the House and was set to pass the Senate in 1860 or 1861. President Buchannan signed it.

Slavery was not the trigger issue. The potential shutting of international trade due to the recent more than doubling of the tax was what pushed the Confederacy to form. SC threatened secession over the Tariff of Abominations three decades before. The amount of trade the first seven states to secede were doing in the mean time had only increased. Lincoln offered to protect slavery, but he never offered to work to lower the new tariff. The Union had to remain whole in order for the American System to work; The exporting South could not be taxed to the benefit of the North if it left. The Southern economy would have to be reorganized if it stayed since it could no longer block the implementation of the Republican Party agenda. Mississippi stated in its reasons for leaving was the South had lost control of the government.

The upper South only seceded after Lincoln called for troops to invade the lower South. Though these states held slaves, they were not big exporters of cotton and therefore dependent on international trade.

If one cannot argue for individual rights of a state or a group of states when those states are themselves trampling on individual rights by holding slave, how can one make the same argument for the original 13 states leaving the British Empire when the people of those states held slaves? Contrarywise, how can one argue that the states had to remain bound to the Union, which they voluntarily joined, but the people of those states could not hold others, who were born into it, in bondage?
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What taxes that you say Lincoln personally impose are you talking about? He was inaugurated on March 4th, 1861. As President Elect his policy was to say, and do nothing to give the South reason to secede. Can you point to anything in that time period to refute that?

The South fired on Fort Sumter on April 12th, a bare 2 months after Lincoln assumed the Presidency. The issue was slavery and the Republican Party's, and Lincoln's, opposition to it -- as Lincoln expressed in the debates with Douglas. It was the Southern Democrats who forced the issue with the passage of the Kansas-Nebraska Act which voided the Missouri Compromise of 1820.

The South had reason to fear for their economy with the election of Lincoln -- an economy based on slave labor.
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I think if your really honest with yourself you'll also find that the economy the north enjoyed was also fueled, of not completely then the majority of it, by slavery. Remember the slaves that had to die while Lincoln played at being an honorable president?

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Since his old Whig days, Abe Lincoln was a fan of a high protective tariff. The tariff was on imports. Those who import also export. That is why it is called "trade." The South were the predominant international traders of the U.S. These states exported agricultural goods to Europe and brought back goods that competed with Northern manufactures. The manufacturers wanted protection from the foreign competition. So they asked Congress to do what it could to shut their competitors out. Congress could only put a tariff on imports. The first protective tariff was passed in 1816. The Tariff of Abominations was passed in 1828 around that time Abe said he supported a high tariff. SC refused to collect it.
Andrew Jackson was elected soon after that tariff passed and went to Congress to get the authority to force SC to collect the tariff. The Force Bill passed, but Jackson did not use it as a compromise tariff also passed. Jackson's authority under the Force Act expired with that session of Congress.
Flash forward 30 years. The South has lost the ability to block a new protective tariff called the Morrill Tariff. It raised the tax to close to that of the Tariff of Abominations. It passed the House in the spring of 1860. Lincoln, a fan of the high tax, was elected with no Southern support. The South's control of the Senate was dying due to a whole series of non-exporting and non-slaveholding territories gaining statehood. Kansas was soon to join them. First the cotton-exporting states seceded. Other slaveholding states held conventions and voted to remain in the Union. The Senate passed the tariff and Buchanan signed it into law a few days before Lincoln was inaugurated.
In his inaugural address Lincoln stated he would protect slavery where it already existed, but supported its exclusion from the territories. He had stated in a speech a few years before that he considered the territories to be a place for poor whites to go to better themselves and whites and negroes living together under any social structure was immoral.

He also said in his inaugural that other than to protect federal property and to collect the duties there would be no invasion and no bloodshed. In other words, he did not believe he needed to go to Congress to get the authority to invade a state to enforce the collection of taxes like Andrew Jackson did.

Other than to illustrate that the president could be elected with no Southern support, Lincoln did nothing as president elect to cause the first Southern states to secede. He did not need to. Congress had passed the tariff. Buchanan signed it. Lincoln endorsed it. The states seceded before Abe was inaugurated. President Buchanan sent the supply ship STAR OF THE WEST to relieve Fort Sumter. South Carolina troops fired on it. It turned around and went home. That was on Jan 9 1861. Buchanan didn't declare war over that.

South Carolina troops fired on Fort Sumter. Why did Lincoln call for troops to suppress the secession of all of the Confederate States and not just South Carolina? His unconstitutional act of calling for troops and telling Virginia to allow them to traverse its territory got Virginia, North Carolina, Arkansas, and Tennessee all to declare secession. Maryland, Missouri, and Kentucky were all occupied by federal troops. Whether the latter two "officially" seceded is a debate that does not interest me.

The South that seceded before Lincoln's call for troops had an agricultural economy based on exports and international trade. The tariff would have killed that trade. Yes. They plantations ran on slave labor and that is a pity. But that is the way it had been for the entire history of the United States. What the North found so horrible about it was slavery gave the South control of Washington D.C. and the very idea of living around negroes was beyond the pale.

If the slave found life so terrible, and Lincoln wanted slavery ended because it was immoral, all he had to do was let the South leave and invite the negroes up North. He could have offered escaped slaves refuge. If life in the North, with its child labor in the mines, and textile mills, where the average work week was 64 hours, and every day was take your daughter to work day, was so much better, moral, and filled with opportunity, surely the South would soon be empty of slaves. No troops, no war, would have been needed to end slavery.

As it was, Lincoln declared war to force the South to pay the tariff. He declared slaves, in areas his government did not control, free in the hopes the slaves would rebel. They did no such thing. There was no slave uprising anywhere. Four million slaves and there was no rebellion.
Ezra Pound said that a slave was someone who waited for someone else to come free him.

If there had been no war, I believe it would ultimately have been up to the slaves to end slavery.
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Pappy, thank you for the courteous restatement of facts that are all but washed away in the swill of crap that Jim C and his ilk like to spew. Never one to let facts stand i his way, Jim C wil be back at it again next week when TD posts another article outlining what crimes Lincoln committed.

Please do return and offer substantive counter points, that is after all what makes for great discussions.
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Ok Vox, now you’re starting to get under my skin with your repeated attempts to indicate three people here are actually only one and your lame response to my last post. You posted “To begin with, you are being overly uncritical in allowing for yet anothe  Read more
Iesos - 7/12/2013 at 7:11 PM GMT
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